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Andes hantavirus is rare, geographically concentrated, and the only hantavirus currently known to spread person to person. In this episode of Transmission Interrupted, Jill Morgan, Dr. Gaby Frank, and Dr. Gavin Harris discuss how the virus is transmitted and why its incubation period of up to six or eight weeks complicates diagnosis. They also explain the difference between New World hantaviruses, which can cause hantavirus pulmonary syndrome, and Old World hantaviruses, which are associated with hemorrhagic fever with renal syndrome.

The conversation focuses on what clinicians should do when Andes hantavirus is suspected: take a careful exposure history, including exposures from as far back as six weeks, identify and isolate the patient, use appropriate PPE, and begin close supportive and critical care. Dr. Harris reviews PCR and serologic testing, while Dr. Frank emphasizes judicious fluid management and the importance of the three “I’s,”: Identify, Isolate, and Inform. The discussion also covers ribavirin, convalescent plasma, monoclonal antibodies, and other investigational treatments, while underscoring that early optimized critical care remains the intervention most consistently associated with improved outcomes.

Questions or comments for NETEC? Contact us.

Visit Transmission Interrupted on the web.

Guests

Maria (Gaby) Frank, MD, FACP, SFHM

Professor of Medicine, PAR, Johns Hopkins University

Director, Johns Hopkins Special Pathogens Center

Dr. Frank is a hospitalist. Professor of Medicine PAR, and the Director of Johns Hopkins’ Special Pathogens Center Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, MD, one of the 13 Regional Emerging Special Pathogen Treatment Centers (RESPTCs). The Johns Hopkins Hospital (JHH) is a premier 1000-bed non-profit academic medical center within the larger Johns Hopkins Health System, one of the leading health care systems in the United States. The 5-hospital health system in the Baltimore-Washington area has 2513 beds (354 intensive care unit beds) and serves approximately 7 million people. JHH provides a full range of clinical services, including specialty care for both adults and pediatric patients. The Johns Hopkins Hospital was ranked number one in the nation by U.S. News & World Report for 22 years of the survey’s 30-year history. Before joining Johns Hopkins, Dr. Frank was the Medical Director of the biocontainment unit at Denver Health and Hospital Authority. In her role as the medical director of BCU, she served as the site Principal Investigator for the NIH-sponsored ACTT trial and is actively involved in the National Emerging Special Pathogen Training and Education Center (NETEC) and Special Pathogens Research Network (SPRN). Dr. Frank received her medical diploma from the University of Buenos Aires in Buenos Aires, Argentina, and completed a residency in Internal Medicine and another in Emergency Medicine in Argentina. She immigrated to the U.S. in 2004, where she completed another Internal Medicine Residency at the University of Colorado, joining as faculty after graduation. Her areas of interest include emergent special pathogens and disaster preparedness and response.

Gavin Harris, MD

Assistant Professor of Medicine

Divisions of Pulmonary and Critical Care Medicine & Infectious Diseases

Emory University

Gavin H. Harris, MD is an Assistant Professor of Medicine at Emory University, holding appointments in both critical care medicine and infectious diseases. His professional focus lies in disaster preparedness and biosecurity. He is the Medical Director for the Emory University Serious Communicable Diseases Program Project ECHO and a staff physician of the Emory University Serious Communicable Diseases Unit. Additionally, Dr. Harris is an alumni fellow at the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health’s Center for Health Security, Emerging Leaders in Biosecurity Initiative (ELBI), as well as faculty with the National Emerging Special Pathogens Training and Education Center (NETEC).

Host

Jill Morgan, RN

Emory Healthcare, Atlanta, GA

Jill Morgan is a registered nurse and a subject matter expert in personal protective equipment (PPE) for NETEC. For 35 years, Jill has been an emergency department and critical care nurse, and now splits her time between education for NETEC and clinical research, most of it centering around infection prevention and personal protective equipment. She is a member of the Association for Professionals in Infection Control and Epidemiology (APIC), ASTM International, and the Association for the Advancement of Medical Instrumentation (AAMI)

Resources

About NETEC

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Our vision is a sustainable infrastructure and culture of readiness for managing suspected and confirmed special pathogen incidents across the United States public health and health care delivery systems.

For more information, visit NETEC.

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NETEC offers free virtual and onsite readiness consulting to help health care facilities and EMS agencies prepare for special pathogen events. Our targeted support services are delivered by experts selected and assigned to each inquiry based on the unique needs of your organization. Have a question? Ask a NETEC expert.

For more information, visit NETEC Consulting Services.

Transcript
Speaker:

Jill Morgan (2): Hello, and welcome to Transmission Interrupted.

Speaker:

My name is Jill Morgan.

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I'm a nurse here at Emory University Hospital in Atlanta.

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For those of you not yet familiar with NETEC, our mission is to set the gold

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standard for special pathogen preparedness and response across health systems in

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the U.S., with the goals of driving best practices and closing knowledge gaps

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and developing innovative resources.

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NETEC works alongside and in cooperation with the CDC, and is

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funded by ASPR, the Administration for Strategic Preparedness and Response.

Speaker:

And today we are going to talk about Andes hantavirus.

Speaker:

So this was all in the news recently with a certain cruise ship, but

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we are going to talk about this particular strain of hantavirus and

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what we know about it and how we can think about at least treating it.

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And as with many, many emerging infectious diseases, a lot of the

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things that we will talk about today are not officially approved therapeutics.

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They're things that people are trying in this landscape of new pathogens

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emerging that need treatment.

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And so I'm really excited today to have two expert guests with me.

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I have Dr. Gaby Frank, who's a professor of medicine and the director of Johns

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Hopkins Special Pathogens Center, and also Dr. Gavin Harris, who's an

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associate medical director of Emory's Serious Communicable Diseases Unit.

Speaker:

So thank you both for being here.

Speaker:

And we're gonna talk about this article that you have recently written.

Speaker:

And I'd love to dive into a little bit about what you guys know about Andes

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hanta and where we can go from here.

Speaker:

I mean, I think it was just such a worrisome time because there

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was so much unknown about it.

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I think it was a surprise to many people in the Northern Hemisphere that

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there was a hantavirus that could be spread person to person, but perhaps

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less so, Gaby, as you're familiar with in the Southern Hemisphere.

Speaker:

So let's just start with that.

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Tell us a little bit about Andes as a virus and its transmission route.

Speaker:

So Gaby, I'm gonna start with you with that, and then maybe Gavin, you can

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kind of fill in the bits and pieces about this most recent outbreak.

Gaby Frank:

And I think to start with Andes virus, it's one of

Gaby Frank:

the species for hanta-- for ortho hantaviruses are those hantaviruses

Gaby Frank:

that cause diseases in humans.

Gaby Frank:

What is important to know is that Andes virus is one of the species

Gaby Frank:

that is present in both Argentina and Chile in the Patagonia area.

Gaby Frank:

It is the only one so far that is known to cause human-to-human transmission.

Gaby Frank:

However, that's also not, like-- Although there was a lot of scare with

Gaby Frank:

what happened on the cruise ship, we need to keep in mind that this is not

Gaby Frank:

a danger for people that are not in the area, and even for people that live in

Gaby Frank:

endemic area, the majority of the cases actually don't cause cluster infections.

Gaby Frank:

So if we think about the latest hanta season in Argentina, only ten percent

Gaby Frank:

of the cases in the whole country were associated or thought to be

Gaby Frank:

associated with Andes virus, and only like two-- there was only a single

Gaby Frank:

cluster, and there were two people that lived in the same household.

Gaby Frank:

So even though it is known to cause human-to-human transmission, and

Gaby Frank:

there have been some clusters like the latest one that we all heard

Gaby Frank:

about because of the cruise ship, but also there have been some other

Gaby Frank:

clusters between Argentina and Chile.

Gaby Frank:

But in general, most of the infections occur through exposure to environmental

Gaby Frank:

areas or where the mouse is present, but not necessarily human-to-human.

Gaby Frank:

So we do need to recognize that it has the trans- this transmission, but also,

Gaby Frank:

people need to feel safe that at least it's not the huge risk that maybe, um…

Gaby Frank:

Well, there's nothing to be scared about at this point.

Gaby Frank:

It's to know a little more about it and and know how to protect themselves and

Gaby Frank:

like, particularly if they're gonna be doing some ecotourism in areas where

Gaby Frank:

it's endemic, what to do, what not to do.

Gaby Frank:

But other than that, it's not something to be scared about.

Gaby Frank:

Jill Morgan (2): So hantaviruses are a family of-- orthohantaviruses are

Gaby Frank:

a family of viruses that are caused by exposure to the urine and feces,

Gaby Frank:

maybe even saliva of mice, rodents.

Gaby Frank:

probably not just a single mouse or rodent, but mice and rodents, and

Gaby Frank:

that for all the mice and rodents in the world, this particular strain of

Gaby Frank:

hantavirus is restricted to this area in Chile and Argentina, and then you

Gaby Frank:

have to get exposed to lots of mice and rodents, in a small geographic area.

Gaby Frank:

You have to get exposed to that rodent droppings or rodent spit,

Gaby Frank:

or have pretty darn close contact with a person who's gotten sick.

Gaby Frank:

So it really does come down pretty quickly from a risk standpoint.

Gaby Frank:

So Gavin, tell us about this new outbreak and, you know, from your

Gaby Frank:

perspective about sort of the, the risk here or how you see things

Gavin Harris:

Thanks so much, Jill.

Gavin Harris:

And, and, uh, y-yes, it's a very interesting confluence of

Gavin Harris:

factors that led to this outbreak.

Gavin Harris:

And I will say, back when the original World Cup draws were announced in

Gavin Harris:

terms of what teams would be going where; this was in December twenty

Gavin Harris:

twenty-five, we were actually thinking about Andes virus because the teams

Gavin Harris:

from Argentina were coming, and their fans were coming to the United States.

Gavin Harris:

And so it was something that we were thinking about, but more as, you know, a,

Gavin Harris:

an exposure risk on a, on a larger scale.

Gavin Harris:

It's interesting that around the same time we had this cruise ship outbreak.

Gavin Harris:

But cruise ships, in general, are really interesting and unique environments.

Gavin Harris:

But like you mentioned, typically you need exposure to the right virus at the

Gavin Harris:

right time with the right vector, right?

Gavin Harris:

So the mice and their bodily fluids or excreta or things of that nature.

Gavin Harris:

One of the challenges, too, with Andes virus is the incubation period

Gavin Harris:

is incredibly long, can be up to six or even eight weeks or so.

Gavin Harris:

And so that really remains a challenge in terms of diagnosis and thinking

Gavin Harris:

about when people develop symptoms, although they most commonly develop

Gavin Harris:

symptoms within those first two weeks.

Gavin Harris:

And the challenge is, too, those symptoms overlap with a lot of other things that

Gavin Harris:

people experience, you know, seasonally with influenza-like illnesses, but

Gavin Harris:

then also when they're on cruise ships or under, uh, undergoing ecotourism

Gavin Harris:

activities or things of that nature.

Gavin Harris:

So it presents a real challenge in terms of diagnosis.

Gavin Harris:

And then to think about, well, that prolonged contact that Gaby

Gavin Harris:

was mentioning that typically people will get Andes virus from.

Gavin Harris:

A cruise ship is a really unique environment for that.

Gavin Harris:

There's a lot of close contact.

Gavin Harris:

There may be even intimate contact on those ships, and there's not

Gavin Harris:

a lot of places to go, honestly.

Gavin Harris:

So these confluences of factors really just unfortunately aligned to

Gavin Harris:

you know, preceding this outbreak.

Gavin Harris:

Jill Morgan (2): And Gaby, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that even

Gavin Harris:

though obviously this outbreak of Andes hanta that occurred on the cruise ship

Gavin Harris:

and was brought to attention, obviously with the passing of three people

Gavin Harris:

total, which is a terrible tragedy, but when people get Andes hanta, what

Gavin Harris:

is the likelihood that they're gonna develop something that critical?

Gavin Harris:

Do people have mild cases of Andes virus?

Gaby Frank:

I think that there's more research that is needed because

Gaby Frank:

the incubation, as we said before, is so, so long that sometimes for

Gaby Frank:

those who develop mild symptoms, they never get diagnosed, correct?

Gaby Frank:

So, there was this study from Chile that actually they, they studied four

Gaby Frank:

hundred and seventy-something contacts of seventy-six people who actually

Gaby Frank:

developed and were confirmed hantaviruses.

Gaby Frank:

And out of those, a little less than 3% actually did end up developing Andes.

Gaby Frank:

And those were very close follow-ups, so even if they developed mild

Gaby Frank:

symptoms, they would have been detected.

Gaby Frank:

So at this point, we don't know if everybody will develop symptoms that are

Gaby Frank:

severe enough to require hospitalization.

Gaby Frank:

Not necessarily critical care, but that require hospitalization

Gaby Frank:

or if there are some other milder cases that are being missed.

Gaby Frank:

Based on whatever is out there in the literature, it appears that when they

Gaby Frank:

did the study in Chile, that 3% of the contacts actually end up developing, and

Gaby Frank:

they actually monitor and test all of those almost five hundred people, right?

Gaby Frank:

So, can we say for sure that that is the case and that there are no mild cases?

Gaby Frank:

I think that is-- well, that would be premature.

Gaby Frank:

We don't have the literature.

Gaby Frank:

We know that for other hantaviruses, particularly in Europe, there was a

Gaby Frank:

seroprevalence of 15% in some areas of the population, which suggests

Gaby Frank:

that maybe some people got exposed, but that is a different hantavirus,

Gaby Frank:

and that is a hantavirus that doesn't cause hanta pulmonary syndrome.

Gaby Frank:

So I think that at this point it would be premature to say that, yes,

Gaby Frank:

some people may be asymptomatic.

Gaby Frank:

It could happen with a lot of viruses, but I don't think that

Gaby Frank:

the literature is out there to, to make a definite statement about it

Gaby Frank:

Jill Morgan (2): So we don't have like seroprevalence studies from

Gaby Frank:

the Patagonia region to know whether people have had an exposure before

Gaby Frank:

that there was perhaps subclinical.

Gaby Frank:

There are so many needs out there for research.

Gaby Frank:

It's amazing.

Gaby Frank:

So all right, we have people that are diagnosed.

Gaby Frank:

We have the possibility, at least if you you have traveled to this area, or you are

Gaby Frank:

living in this area, you have exposure to fields or trash dumps or food store

Gaby Frank:

areas, or you're cleaning something out, anything that would have exposed

Gaby Frank:

you to this potential rodent source.

Gaby Frank:

The next step, Gavin, is how do we diagnose Andes hanta?

Gavin Harris:

It's a great question, Jill, and it's an interesting discussion too.

Gavin Harris:

So, you know, when we think about exposure risk, we think about epidemiologic risk.

Gavin Harris:

If you have someone who is young, who comes in with a rapidly progressive

Gavin Harris:

febrile and respiratory illness with consistent epidemiologic exposure

Gavin Harris:

to the things you just mentioned, we're thinking about hantavirus.

Gavin Harris:

And not just Andes virus itself, but really any of the, in this

Gavin Harris:

hemisphere, the New World hantaviruses.

Gavin Harris:

And then with comparatively, in the other parts of the world, Old

Gavin Harris:

World hantaviruses as well.

Gavin Harris:

So that's the first thing: clinical suspicion is super

Gavin Harris:

super important here as well too.

Gavin Harris:

In terms of laboratory findings, we sometimes find thrombocytopenia,

Gavin Harris:

so low platelets, high white blood cells, or leukocytosis.

Gavin Harris:

And then if we're able to get a peripheral smear from the blood,

Gavin Harris:

circulating immunoblasts, which is a very uncommon but pathognomonic finding for

Gavin Harris:

Andes virus itself is pretty classic.

Gavin Harris:

And then later in the stage of the illness, we do find hemoconcentration

Gavin Harris:

or, you know, we'd find that by a rise in hemoglobin and hematocrit

Gavin Harris:

and things of that nature too.

Gavin Harris:

Now, definitive diagnosis, it really relies on molecular and serologic testing.

Gavin Harris:

This is typically performed at designated reference laboratories,

Gavin Harris:

although there are some laboratories in the United States that are starting

Gavin Harris:

to, as the visibility from this most recent outbreak has occurred or

Gavin Harris:

increased, are starting to bring on some of this molecular testing itself.

Gavin Harris:

So, and that is really PCR testing when I, when I say molecular testing too.

Gavin Harris:

But there's also been a very important study that has shown that people can

Gavin Harris:

actually diagnose or detect the RNA of Andes virus two weeks prior to showing

Gavin Harris:

symptoms, which is incredibly important.

Gavin Harris:

Now, it doesn't necessarily mean or definitively mean that they

Gavin Harris:

are contagious two weeks prior to when they show symptoms.

Gavin Harris:

But if you think about it, you can detect it in someone who may

Gavin Harris:

have been exposed to Andes virus.

Gavin Harris:

And then typically, we will detect that virus in the first

Gavin Harris:

two weeks of illness itself.

Gavin Harris:

And then, of course, as the illness progresses, the level of

Gavin Harris:

virus, as well, will increase too.

Gavin Harris:

So PCR testing, just to sum it up.

Gavin Harris:

So PCR testing and then also Andes virus-specific, serologic assays

Gavin Harris:

looking for IgM and IgG proteins.

Gavin Harris:

Jill Morgan (2): Excellent.

Gavin Harris:

So Gaby, so here we have, for instance, let's say somebody's-- we have this

Gavin Harris:

person who presents with a potential exposure, a rapid onset of a fever,

Gavin Harris:

we're working on this diagnosis.

Gavin Harris:

What is our first line of treatment, at for instance, in an emergency department?

Gavin Harris:

What do you recommend that people start with?

Gaby Frank:

So before we talk about treatment, I think that the

Gaby Frank:

key when we're talking about a point of entry to the healthcare

Gaby Frank:

system, in this case the emergency department is the three I's, right?

Gaby Frank:

So the first thing that we need to do is make sure that we can identify,

Gaby Frank:

and that is, again, good history.

Gaby Frank:

And when we talk about, like, Gavin just brought this up, it's a suspicious

Gaby Frank:

case with the right epidemiology.

Gaby Frank:

And one thing to highlight is that because the incubation could be up to six weeks,

Gaby Frank:

again, Gavin already mentioned this; it is important to, when someone has this

Gaby Frank:

rapid respiratory worsening on someone that is healthy, to make sure that you

Gaby Frank:

go and ask about those epidemiologic exposures or environmental exposures

Gaby Frank:

like six weeks back and not just stick to the last two weeks.

Gaby Frank:

So I think that the first thing when we're talking about an emergency department

Gaby Frank:

is the identification of the patient.

Gaby Frank:

Then we're gonna isolate those patients, just to make sure that we

Gaby Frank:

prevent anybody else from actually getting in contact with the patient,

Gaby Frank:

but we still need to provide care.

Gaby Frank:

So we need to don the appropriate PPE.

Gaby Frank:

And then when we're in the emergency department, we're gonna have to

Gaby Frank:

inform whoever is gonna guide the treatment of that patient.

Gaby Frank:

However, the most important thing is to provide the right supportive care

Gaby Frank:

and critical care for the patient.

Gaby Frank:

So without talking about what other experimental things can be tested, the

Gaby Frank:

most important thing is to provide the correct level of care, that a lot

Gaby Frank:

of these patients require critical care and very appropriate supportive care.

Gaby Frank:

Jill Morgan (2): And so you say supportive care.

Gaby Frank:

You know, so we have somebody with respiratory symptoms, with

Gaby Frank:

high fever, so we need IV access.

Gaby Frank:

We need to think about checking people's electrolytes.

Gaby Frank:

We need to make sure we're offering respiratory support.

Gaby Frank:

Are these people likely, Gavin, to get critically ill quickly?

Gavin Harris:

If they truly have Andes virus and that progresses to hantavirus

Gavin Harris:

pulmonary syndrome or HPS, yes, they can progress rapidly within hours to days.

Gavin Harris:

And so the early recognition and the initiation of that supportive care

Gavin Harris:

characteristics that you just mentioned, Jill, is so essential to preempt the

Gavin Harris:

the virus and its effects, and also to provide that supportive care as well, too.

Gavin Harris:

And even things incredibly invasive, such as aggressive fluid management

Gavin Harris:

has sometimes been utilized.

Gavin Harris:

Things like extracorporeal membrane oxygenation, or ECMO, have also

Gavin Harris:

been utilized to important effect, especially when patients rapidly

Gavin Harris:

progress into that severe phase

Gavin Harris:

Jill Morgan (2): Wow

Gaby Frank:

Can I add something, Jill?

Gaby Frank:

What Gavin said is like, I-- people need to know that.

Gaby Frank:

And when we talk about fluid management, that usually, in the beginning, we're

Gaby Frank:

doing very judicious fluid management.

Gaby Frank:

It's aggressive for that patient, but it's judicious.

Gaby Frank:

We don't do a lot of IV fluids because those patients tend to do worse.

Gaby Frank:

So those patients need very, very close monitoring to maybe adjust the

Gaby Frank:

amount of fluid that we're giving aggressively to what are the losses

Gaby Frank:

on that patient, but not to go over.

Gaby Frank:

So it's like it's judicious, but there's no one number that we can tell people,

Gaby Frank:

"Oh, this is what you're supposed to do," but just make sure that they do

Gaby Frank:

very strict I's and O's, and they're trying to keep up with the patient's

Gaby Frank:

losses, but not necessarily go above.

Gaby Frank:

Jill Morgan (2): Yeah.

Gaby Frank:

I remember in early septic care it was like this idea in critical care

Gaby Frank:

medicine at the time was to give them fluids until you need to increase their

Gaby Frank:

oxygen, because you don't want to go overboard and then end up with a lot of

Gaby Frank:

fluid where you didn't wish it to be.

Gaby Frank:

So Andes has been in the news a lot, but tell me what we have

Gaby Frank:

as far as treatment options.

Gaby Frank:

Gavin, I know that there are no approved therapeutics that are, certainly at

Gaby Frank:

least approved for this use, but what kind of things are people trying or

Gaby Frank:

using, uh, in the treatment of, of Andes?

Gavin Harris:

Yeah.

Gavin Harris:

So, just to reiterate, Jill as well too, what Gaby mentioned, there

Gavin Harris:

are no licensed therapeutics; there are no licensed vaccines right now.

Gavin Harris:

But the only thing that is consistently shown to improve mortality in these

Gavin Harris:

patients is that early optimized critical care that we just talked about.

Gavin Harris:

So I really can't highlight that enough.

Gavin Harris:

You know, and also since you brought up traditional sepsis management

Gavin Harris:

and critically ill, or the management of a critically ill patient, high-dose

Gavin Harris:

glucocorticoids or steroids have often have often been used in these patients.

Gavin Harris:

And like we do in other cases of septic shock or

Gavin Harris:

multi-organ dysfunction syndrome.

Gavin Harris:

But what's interesting is, specifically Andes virus, there was a study done out

Gavin Harris:

of Chile that did show that high-dose methylprednisolone actually did not

Gavin Harris:

result in a significant clinical benefit or difference in mortality.

Gavin Harris:

And the most recent guidance that we actually have from two thousand and

Gavin Harris:

seven explicitly lists glucocorticoids as contraindicated as patients with exposure

Gavin Harris:

to Andes virus or other orthohantaviruses.

Gavin Harris:

So I just wanted to highlight that as well.

Gavin Harris:

Of course, data may be changing, and this was simply one study, of course, too.

Gavin Harris:

But some other things that we've tried, and I say we, the medical community

Gavin Harris:

has utilized; number one is ribavirin.

Gavin Harris:

So this is a nucleoside analog.

Gavin Harris:

It's been used in many viral infections, including Lassa fever,

Gavin Harris:

hepatitis C, respiratory syncytial virus, or RSV, and measles as well.

Gavin Harris:

And it's actually shown significant antiviral activity against Andes virus.

Gavin Harris:

And it's been used not just in therapeutics and treatment, but

Gavin Harris:

also in post-exposure prophylaxis.

Gavin Harris:

But again, there's no high-quality clinical trial that has shown

Gavin Harris:

efficacy in humans or in hantavirus pulmonary syndrome itself as well.

Gavin Harris:

So, it-it's just important to recognize and to highlight again that there's a

Gavin Harris:

real opportunity for additional research in this specific area as well.

Gavin Harris:

So and then some other therapeutic and investigational agents that have been

Gavin Harris:

utilized include convalescent plasma.

Gavin Harris:

So this is looking at or taking the plasma of survivors of Andes virus

Gavin Harris:

and giving that plasma to patients who may be infected with Andes virus.

Gavin Harris:

And this actually has shown some good efficacy, especially outside the United

Gavin Harris:

States, so in Argentina and Chile.

Gavin Harris:

Monoclonal antibodies, which are really, kind of an avenue for

Gavin Harris:

every sort of high-consequence infectious disease that we're seeing,

Gavin Harris:

have shown really great promise.

Gavin Harris:

But again, there's no efficacy data in humans as of yet.

Gavin Harris:

And then we have some other direct, uh, antivirals, favipiravir,

Gavin Harris:

baloxavir, mamipiravir.

Gavin Harris:

These have also, uh, are undergoing clinical trials, or clinical

Gavin Harris:

studies as we, as we speak here too.

Gavin Harris:

Again, we, we lack, clinical effec-effec-- excuse me, efficacy data as of yet.

Gavin Harris:

And one of the challenges is that in the grand scheme of things,

Gavin Harris:

Andes virus is really incredibly rare, except for these regions, as

Gavin Harris:

of now that we're talking about.

Gavin Harris:

Jill Morgan (2): Yeah, but they're beautiful regions of the world.

Gavin Harris:

They're beautiful regions of the world with that have a fair amount of tourism,

Gavin Harris:

not just people going down to Ushuaia to get on a cruise to Antarctica.

Gavin Harris:

But, you know, uh, volcanoes and, and all sorts of gorgeous landscapes down there.

Gavin Harris:

And I think that, that we don't wanna discourage people from going

Gavin Harris:

to places like this and to have these travel experiences, but understanding

Gavin Harris:

that every part of the world has its own set of risks, whether

Gavin Harris:

that's, you know, coming into contact with measles somewhere or coming into

Gavin Harris:

contact with a rodent who might have something in another part of the world.

Gavin Harris:

And rodents worldwide do spread a fair amount of pathogens, but it does

Gavin Harris:

take a m- a measure of contact with them or with somebody else who's sick

Gavin Harris:

in order to make somebody else sick.

Gavin Harris:

And I, I wanna make sure that we're clear for people who

Gavin Harris:

aren't familiar with Andes hanta.

Gavin Harris:

So, so hantaviruses in general, big, wide category of pathogens,

Gavin Harris:

many of which don't cause diseases in the animals themselves, so

Gavin Harris:

the animals don't look sick.

Gavin Harris:

And then exposure to humans that might cause a disease in humans, doesn't

Gavin Harris:

necessarily mean that that disease can be spread from person to person.

Gavin Harris:

So the person has to get it and then be able to spread it to someone else.

Gavin Harris:

And right now, the Andes version of hanta is the only one we know of that

Gavin Harris:

has that sort of person-to-person spread.

Gavin Harris:

But as Gavin, you mentioned, the Old World hanta and New World hanta have different

Gavin Harris:

syndromes that cause critical illness.

Gavin Harris:

And c- can perhaps, and I'm not sure which one of you would like to sort of

Gavin Harris:

give a very brief explanation of that difference between what happens with

Gavin Harris:

Old World hantaviruses that make people sick versus what happens with New World

Gavin Harris:

hantaviruses and what makes people sick.

Gavin Harris:

But this was, I think, a little bit of a confusion even during, uh, the,

Gavin Harris:

the cruise ship episode of what kind of syndrome people were likely to see.

Gaby Frank:

So I can do a quick start.

Gaby Frank:

So I think that the big difference between-- There's over 28 different

Gaby Frank:

hantavirus, uh, or orthohantavirus species that can cause disease in humans.

Gaby Frank:

Usually, those that are present in Europe and Asia, they will cause a renal

Gaby Frank:

syndrome with hemorrhagic fever, right?

Gaby Frank:

It's very different from what they cause, the one in the new world that is all

Gaby Frank:

the Americas, North, Central, and South America, and those are the hantaviruses

Gaby Frank:

that cause hanta pulmonary syndrome.

Gaby Frank:

So the presentations are different and so are the pathogenesis.

Gaby Frank:

Some are a little more virulent or cause disease that is

Gaby Frank:

mu-more severe, particularly within those that there's a lot more

Gaby Frank:

and like the clinical presentation, particularly in the Old World hantaviruses

Gaby Frank:

than in the New World hantaviruses.

Gaby Frank:

So the new world orthohantaviruses, which are those that cause disease

Gaby Frank:

in humans, most of them will cause a severe pulmonary disease that

Gaby Frank:

is the hanta pulmonary syndrome.

Gaby Frank:

And then in the United States, we have Sin Nombre.

Gaby Frank:

We have the New York virus.

Gaby Frank:

There's, there's a lit- there's a handful of viruses here that are, the,

Gaby Frank:

in the hanta species that is best known as the Sin Nombre in Four Corners.

Gaby Frank:

But in the US, we also have hantaviruses that can cause the same syndrome minus the

Gaby Frank:

person-to-person transmission possibility.

Gaby Frank:

And I'm gonna argue that some Argentinians will say that there's a different species

Gaby Frank:

of the virus that is the Buenos Aires virus that is also known to cause human-to-human

Gaby Frank:

transmission and has a different geographic area than the Andes virus.

Gaby Frank:

But there's still some nomenclature challenges of whether it's a different

Gaby Frank:

species or is the same one or is a variant of the same species.

Gaby Frank:

But we do have hantaviruses in the U.S., and I think that exposure to rodents

Gaby Frank:

and rodent excreta can also potentially lead to hantavirus, and that's something

Gaby Frank:

that people need to keep in mind.

Gaby Frank:

That it's not if someone didn't travel to Patagonia and they present with

Gaby Frank:

something that is similar to a hanta pulmonary syndrome; it could be, even

Gaby Frank:

if they didn't travel to Patagonia

Gaby Frank:

Jill Morgan (2): Right.

Gaby Frank:

Right.

Gaby Frank:

And we have had a case, I think, in people's collective memory in the

Gaby Frank:

United States, um, not too long ago that involved sort of a famous couple

Gaby Frank:

and the unfortunate death of, of, uh, someone from hantavirus that was

Gaby Frank:

not-- did not have person-to-person spread, but still led to the demise.

Gaby Frank:

So it is, I think, important for people to understand there's a risk

Gaby Frank:

in the United States of exposure to hantavirus from exposure to the

Gaby Frank:

same kind of this idea of mice.

Gaby Frank:

And typically we think of those being in the desert Southwest and

Gaby Frank:

and the mountainous regions.

Gaby Frank:

But I think, Gaby, from the last time we had a podcast about hanta, we

Gaby Frank:

learned that, oh my gosh, well, maybe it's been identified in a lot of other

Gaby Frank:

mice as well, and there have been some cases, I think, in Vermont and

Gaby Frank:

in other parts of the United States.

Gaby Frank:

So it is something that if you've been camping, if you've been dealing with or

Gaby Frank:

cleaning out something that had perhaps mouse or rodent droppings, and you

Gaby Frank:

suddenly have a fever, you need to mention those things when you present for care.

Gaby Frank:

And you might have something that is at least dangerous to you, even if

Gaby Frank:

it's not dangerous to other people.

Gaby Frank:

So, keeping that in mind, bad things don't always come from somewhere else.

Gaby Frank:

So it's not just something that's limited to travel to some exotic locale.

Gaby Frank:

So I want to ask you both, was there something as you were researching

Gaby Frank:

this, this article about the treatments for, for Andes virus, uh, was there

Gaby Frank:

something that you learned, in doing this research that you thought, "Oh

Gaby Frank:

gosh, I mean, I'm so glad we get the opportunity to elevate this or to

Gaby Frank:

amplify this because I didn't know this.

Gaby Frank:

This was news to me?

Gavin Harris:

So I, I think, Jill, from my perspective, it again

Gavin Harris:

highlights the potential avenues for repurposing of therapeutics, right?

Gavin Harris:

And so we think about, of course, ribavirin.

Gavin Harris:

It's been around for decades, but it has shown some potential.

Gavin Harris:

But we've even shown some great-- there's some great evidence and

Gavin Harris:

signals coming out of studies now for favipiravir and baloxavir, right,

Gavin Harris:

and of course, monoclonal antibodies.

Gavin Harris:

Um, and so I think it's really important to understand the potential that one

Gavin Harris:

drug can have for many, potentially many different pathogens, which is something

Gavin Harris:

that I, I don't think we always recognize.

Gavin Harris:

I also think that this outbreak, uh, and the research that we did certainly

Gavin Harris:

highlights, again, the importance of infection control practices.

Gavin Harris:

What's, what's interesting is that in all of the studies that we looked

Gavin Harris:

at and all of the published data that we have, there were very,

Gavin Harris:

very few, less than five nosocomial transmissions of this virus when the

Gavin Harris:

proper infection control practices and appropriate personal protective

Gavin Harris:

equipment, PPE, practices were followed.

Gavin Harris:

Which I think, again, lends weight to how important some of these fundamentals

Gavin Harris:

of care, not just for something like Andes virus or other HCIDs, but also

Gavin Harris:

just the care of patients in general.

Gavin Harris:

And I, I, I think I, I really can't emphasize that enough, and I was

Gavin Harris:

actually quite surprised to find that low a number of nosocomial challenges.

Gavin Harris:

Jill Morgan (2): Anytime we get to promote the importance of the early

Gavin Harris:

and correct use of PPE makes me happy.

Gavin Harris:

Gaby, anything surprising to you?

Gaby Frank:

Well, what I was gonna say is by-- not just by doing the research and

Gaby Frank:

review of the literature for this article, but also, we have done the review of literature

Gaby Frank:

right before this happened, right?

Gaby Frank:

So we had this article ready to go before the most recent outbreak.

Gaby Frank:

And I think that we had the opportunity to talk to a lot of our

Gaby Frank:

international colleagues that actually care for some of those patients.

Gaby Frank:

And I think that also, um, hopefully will lead to a lot of

Gaby Frank:

publications with their anecdotal experience of the treatments that they

Gaby Frank:

use that I don't want to bring up here because they didn't publish them yet.

Gaby Frank:

But I think that people are trying to repurpose medications and try to, based

Gaby Frank:

on the pathophysiology of hanta pulmonary syndrome, propose certain therapeutics

Gaby Frank:

that may be helpful in the future.

Gaby Frank:

So I think that there's gonna be some publications coming, and it's important

Gaby Frank:

to stay tuned for those as well.

Gaby Frank:

They're not from us, but, um, because, like, we didn't have to

Gaby Frank:

treat any of the patients in the US.

Gaby Frank:

But, you know, we have a lot of international colleagues who did,

Gaby Frank:

and they learned a lot from it, and I think we learn from them, and they're

Gaby Frank:

gonna be sharing that experience with the rest of the medical community.

Gaby Frank:

Hopefully very soon.

Gaby Frank:

Jill Morgan (2): I think that it's such a great reminder that not only is our

Gaby Frank:

world small because people travel quickly and can be anywhere very fast, but how

Gaby Frank:

important it is that people like you two have contacts and keep open dialogues with

Gaby Frank:

places that are treating these pathogens so that if you were to get a patient

Gaby Frank:

you can understand what this has looked like from people who have treated more

Gaby Frank:

than a single case in their lifetime.

Gaby Frank:

The knowledge base being shared worldwide is so important because we never know

Gaby Frank:

where things are gonna pop up, who we're gonna need to rely on as the

Gaby Frank:

resident expert in these new pathogens or these pathogens that are new to us.

Gaby Frank:

And knowing that we can reach out to people in other parts of the world who

Gaby Frank:

have better experience, more experience, better expertise in these things is

Gaby Frank:

really important, and we wanna keep those lines of communication open.

Gaby Frank:

We wanna keep sharing what we can share with people because, um,

Gaby Frank:

it makes everybody's care better, and safer for healthcare workers,

Gaby Frank:

which is, you know, one of my primary concerns for all of this.

Gaby Frank:

So I wanna give you guys the opportunity, if there's something

Gaby Frank:

else you want to really get out there as a message about Andes hanta.

Gaby Frank:

Uh, we will definitely be sharing the link to the article

Gaby Frank:

about this recent publication.

Gaby Frank:

And, you know, really highlighting the importance of this kind of work and that

Gaby Frank:

we continue to work on emerging infectious diseases of any kind so that we can

Gaby Frank:

make healthcare safer here in the United States and wherever people need care.

Gaby Frank:

So I think I have said this before.

Gaby Frank:

I think that history and physical exam are key.

Gaby Frank:

Identifying those patients, asking the ri- right questions is very, very important

Gaby Frank:

to have a high index of suspicion, and that is the first part of the diagnosis.

Gaby Frank:

So I think that following the three I's- so identify, isolate, inform,

Gaby Frank:

is key to keep everybody safe.

Gaby Frank:

But for that first, we really need to dedicate some time to talk to the

Gaby Frank:

patients and maybe say, "Okay, this will require me to stay a little longer

Gaby Frank:

talking to the patient because the history may be a little more complex."

Gaby Frank:

Um, and then what we have available to all of us is the supportive care.

Gaby Frank:

And while we're thinking, can this or can this not be hanta, we still

Gaby Frank:

need to care for our patients.

Gaby Frank:

So feeling very comfortable wearing our PPE is key to

Gaby Frank:

provide excellent clinical care

Gavin Harris:

If I might just add, I do hope this article not

Gavin Harris:

only sheds some light on Andes virus itself, but also on other hantaviruses

Gavin Harris:

like we've been talking about.

Gavin Harris:

And to illustrate what you already have mentioned, Jill, too, that--

Gavin Harris:

and Gaby, we have hantaviruses in this country, and it's important

Gavin Harris:

to be aware of how they come about.

Gavin Harris:

It's important for everyone to be aware of how to properly clean things like barns

Gavin Harris:

and crawl spaces and areas where there might be rodent droppings, because we

Gavin Harris:

can certainly have similar presentations.

Gavin Harris:

And then this goes back to ensuring that we get the appropriate exposure

Gavin Harris:

history, that people don't have to get things from elsewhere, right?

Gavin Harris:

They can happen in our own backyard, up and down the East Coast or out

Gavin Harris:

West in the Four Corners region too.

Gavin Harris:

Jill Morgan (2): And whether that's travel, whether that's mountain

Gavin Harris:

climbing, whether that's, you know, being on a cruise ship or eating oysters

Gavin Harris:

in the Gulf, whatever it is, you, you need to do some, some sleuthing.

Gavin Harris:

Um, and it doesn't just end with those screening questions that might pop up on

Gavin Harris:

on your electronic medical record screen.

Gavin Harris:

I wanna thank you guys so much for putting this article together, for coming and

Gavin Harris:

talking to us today about the Andes virus, about the treatments, limited as they

Gavin Harris:

may be right now, but also perhaps repurposing some things that have been

Gavin Harris:

around for a while to help us treat and prevent, hopefully, the devolution

Gavin Harris:

of a patient into hantapulmonary syndrome or some of the other really

Gavin Harris:

critical care negative effects that can happen when cases progress.

Gavin Harris:

So early identification is key.

Gavin Harris:

If you have questions about Andes hantavirus, we'll have some links

Gavin Harris:

attached to this podcast episode.

Gavin Harris:

And certainly, again, as Gavin and Gaby have both said, it's so important to

Gavin Harris:

just have this on your radar whenever you're treating patients that

Gavin Harris:

they may have an exposure to rodents or rodent droppings, and that you think

Gavin Harris:

about some of the pathogens that are associated with that kind of exposure.

Gavin Harris:

So I want to thank you guys both so much.

Gavin Harris:

For those of you listening at home, we appreciate you joining us for this episode

Gavin Harris:

on Andes hantavirus and the new article on the treatment options for such things.

Gavin Harris:

We hope you'll join us for future episodes on a wide range of topics

Gavin Harris:

from healthcare worker safety to personal protective equipment,

Gavin Harris:

all kinds of infectious diseases.

Gavin Harris:

If you have any questions for NETEC or ideas for future shows, please feel

Gavin Harris:

free to contact us at info@netec.org.

Gavin Harris:

You can also find us on the web at netec.org/podcast, where you can

Gavin Harris:

subscribe to future episodes and find out more about today's topic.

Gavin Harris:

So thank you, Dr. Frank and Dr. Harris, and we'll see you next

Gavin Harris:

time on Transmission Interrupted.

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